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In 2013 I gave a presentation at the Institute for Human and Machine Cognition (IHMC) in Pensacola, Florida. Ken Ford, the CEO and Founder of IHMC, is a remarkable person and I could not wait to meet his team and see their research. IHMC does cutting edge work, primarily for the Department of Defense (DoD). I had an exhilarating day which culminated with a presentation I gave to the team and also the public.
Want more content like this? Check out our interviews with Kristin Neff on the power of self-compassion and Esther Perel on the effects of trauma.
The talk I gave was a first timer. (Usually the first two or three times I give a talk it’s not very good, as I need to work out some kinks.) However, since the talk was recorded I’ll set my perfectionist tendencies aside and share it, below. The talk is about an hour, and the Q&A session was also recorded.
A month or so before the talk, I asked Ken what he wanted me to talk about and he suggested I speak about human performance and resilience – both topics of importance for the DoD. I don’t consider myself an expert in either of these topics, but I certainly appreciate the need to maximize, or least optimize, both. Rather than give a highly technical talk, I chose to give a slightly technical talk that focused more on my own journey in this space and some of the experiments I’ve done on myself, specifically those around energy utilization. This talk does not present all of the data on my self-experiments, of course, but hopefully it gives you a sense of what kind of data can be gathered for studying energy utilization. In subsequent posts I’ll likely delve further into the data that support these findings and expand on a few of the tangents not fully explored here. For “regular” readers of this blog, the first half of this presentation is pretty basic, but the second half should offer novel info. For new readers, hopefully the entire talk will be informative.
For those reading via email, here is the presentation:
Photo by Siyan Ren on Unsplash
Good stuff. Peter, I’m interested, based on my understanding that RQ tends to *increase* at altitude, whether you can point me in the direction the ketosis/altitude studies you mentioned in this talk.
Ben, what I was referring to was the studies (mostly by Veech, et al) that demonstrate reduced oxygen requirement for power output when the mitochondria use B-OHB and AcAC in combination with glucose and FFA (vs. glucose + FFA alone, as in a “normal” state). This is the “Delta G arbitrage” I wrote about in the earlier posts on ketosis. The increase typically seen in RQ at altitude is, I believe, transient as the respiratory system hyperventilates to correct the perceived hypoxia (as ventilation goes up, VCO2 goes up, RQ goes up).
What I noticed, contrasting two intense training experiences I had in Colorado (one in early 2011, before ketosis; the other in mid 2012, a year into ketosis) was a significant reduction in “air hunger” at altitude (both times in Colorado). Looking at my telemetry data, I noticed that I seemed to have less heart rate elevation (and presumably less O2 requirement) for similar demands while in ketosis.
Interesting. You should check out 1st paragraph here for summary of my thoughts: https://www.jappl.org/content/88/1/246.full
Will check it out, Ben. Thanks.
There seem to be a significant number of people who experience elevated fasting glucose levels on a low carb diet. (This was alluded to by an earlier commenter in this thread.) The question is, why, as one would expect the opposite to occur. In my own case, I have definitely lost weight on the diet (I am now very lean) but my fasting glucose has gone from the 90s pre-diet to 109. Should I infer from this that, weight loss notwithstanding, the diet is not having the desired effect of insulin inhibition?
Thank you so much for a fantastic blog!!
Olivia, yes, I have seen in this a small, but non-trivial subset of folks. At least in the cases I have seen, Hb A1C goes down, as does fasting insulin, as does OGTT response and TG, but nevertheless, fasting glucose is slightly higher. I have a few ideas why this might be happening (Mark Sisson wrote out this on MDA once, I think), but the bigger question is, is a bad thing? I do not believe it to be so.
Hi Peter,
In your reply to Olivia you write – ” but nevertheless, fasting glucose is slightly higher”.
I would be grateful if you able to put a figure on the description – ‘slightly’.
Might it be about 0.5 mmol (9mg) , 1 mmol (18mg) or . . . .
( I am a nerd for data – quantification, I guess.)
BTW, I enjoyed the presentation. Thanks for releasing.
Probably between 0.25 and 0.5 or maybe up to 1 mM.
Petro Dobromylskyj at Hyperlipid, AKA https://high-fat-nutrition.blogspot.com/ has a series of detailed, studious articles about this phenomenon which he refers to as Physiological Insulin Resistance (I think Mark Sisson discusses it as Peripheral Insulin Resistance). The takeaway I got was that it’s a good sign; that your body is raising GH and mobilizing fatty acids as a fuel which causes the muscles to protectively refuse some glucose because they are being fueled by the cleaner burning FAs (proportionally less NADH going into the leakier complex I on the electron transport chain) and also the body is hanging onto some glucose for the brain’s use in the absence of dietary glucose. I think his experience has been even a bit higher fasting blood sugar (120 I think) but it didn’t deter him from continuing his very low carb intake.
In light of the AMA decision to declare obesity a disease your publication of his talk was so very timely. Bariatric physicians may be able to give this the right interpretation in the sense that primary-care providers need to refer to specialists when they are unable, as most are, to help cure their patients of obesity. I hope that your talk will spread far enough on youtube that patients will educate their physicians, if necessary by showing them results, before our health care system collapses.
My one question, concerning your point that a ketogenic diet does not work for everyone. What is your estimated guess for what percent of the obese/overweight population a well-formulated low-carb diet does work? Also, are there any medical conditions that you know of where trying it could be harmful?
Is there any reason to not shout the message from the rooftops via social media?
Birgit
I just don’t know. I don’t think we have enough data to answer that with certainty.
When I look up Weir Coefficients on the web, it looks like everyone just uses 3.94 and 1.11. Could you tell me how you calculate different coefficients? Thanks.
SUPER COMPLICATED! It requires knowing the exact heats of combustion for ever single food you consume and solving a series of 8 equations with slightly more unknowns (and making an assumption).
Until I read this post, I only knew one thing about IHMC: they make and distribute for free (donations welcome) an application called CmapTools, of which I am an enthusiastic user.
CmapTools is a computer application for creating Concept Maps. Few people have heard of concept maps, but more might be familiar with graphic organizers or mind maps, which are related to, yet different from, concept maps. Perhaps the best way to learn what a concept map is, is to look at this concept map explaining concept maps, created by IHMC:
https://cmapskm.ihmc.us/rid=1064009710027_1483270340_27090/CmapTools%20-%20Concept%20Map%20About%20Concept%20Maps.html
Why would anyone care about concept maps? Because if you have something you want to express, one of the best ways to make sure that your thinking is rigorous and clear is to put it into a concept map. And, if you would like, you can use CmapTools to create a Powerpoint-like presentation with your concept map.
I have found that concept maps are also excellent tools for helping me to learn new information. If I am confused about a subject, I will create a concept map on it. Not too long ago, a study was published which included concept maps, and it received a fair amount of publicity:
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/01/110121111216.htm
Some readers have misinterpreted the study to be saying that concept maps perform worse than other methods of learning. However, that conclusion is not supported by the evidence. What that study (and the entire research program of Roediger and Karpicke) demonstrates is that if you want to learn something, taking notes or drawing a concept map from an open book is not a very good method. A better method is to read the material, close the book, and then take notes or draw a concept map. Then open the book, review the material, close the book, and revise your notes or concept map. The key is not to work from an open book, but to close the book and work from memory.
This is called “retrieval practice,” and I have only been doing for the past three weeks. As the researchers demonstrate it is counterintuitive and seems as if it would be less effective than working directly from an open book. But it’s not.
In the study, concept mapping with an open book was pitted against retrieval practice with a closed book. Retrieval practice won. But I believe that one of the authors, Karpicke, was planning on doing another study in which subjects create concept maps after closing their books. Concept maps are helpful, but, like anything else, they work better when they are created after the book is closed.
I know that this might seem like a digression upon a digression. But I believe that anyone who follows Peter’s blog has a penchant for learning new knowledge domains and a willingness to test counterintuitive practices.
Mike, I am a huge fan of these and Ken Ford (CEO of IHMC) have discussed how useful this tool could be for mapping out what is understood about nutrition science. We have plans for discussing if NuSI can use these tools to better communicate eventually.
Peter,
Any experience or opinion regarding this product? I have no stake in it.
Blue Ice Royal Butter Oil / Fermented Cod Liver Oil Blend
No idea.
Butter Oil plus ketogenic diet reduced my annual time in the dental hygenist chair by seventy five percent, within one year of use. Well worth the experiment at over $100/lb.
“BTW – you won’t catch me complaining when I have a friendly audience. It’s really refreshing once in a while. I’m pretty tired of getting yelled at and told I’m an idiot.”
Peter, i discovered your blog after reading similar ones for a year ( i reached here via Tom Naughton’s one ). People like you literally saved my life ( i had depression ), and i want to just thank you for all you’ve done. I hope my recognition at least mitigates the effect of the hordes of idiots you had the displeasure talking to.
From Brazil, with admiration.
Thanks so much, Daniel.
Great speech. Do you ever think there’s a time where you could do weight training in the metabolic chamber? My major form of exercise is weight training, and I have done it in and out of ketosis. It might be close to the plyo work you did, but I’d love to compare and contrast the data.
They’re not really big enough for “serious” stuff, but the pushups and plyos probably give some indication of the energy requirements.
Thanks Peter! Great presentation that I could actually understand and take some pointers from.
I just turned 48 today ( yeah birthday ! ) and have three of the markers for metabolic syndrome. My current doctor has me on crestor and just tells me to exercise more. I am now super excited to read more on your blog and see if I can improve my life! Would really like to get away from popping a pill everyday.
One question – you spoke of the genetic factor in your presentation. What is the best way to determine if I’m a good gene or bad gene person?
Thanks for your help and keep on testing the limits!
Factors, really. There are several, but rarely are they single genes (apoE being a rare exception).
Peter, it’s a very interesting set of experiments and a great talk. I myself have followed Phinney & Volek’s prescription for nutritional ketosis for a year now and my results don’t seem to be that different from yours except I have not quanitifed them precisely as you have.
I’d have two questions:
1. You mention around minute 52 that your resting energy expenditure is consistently higher than predicted. Do you think it has more to do with the keto-adaptation or the exercise regime; would you consider it an empirical proof for the so called “atkins edge”?
2. I have recently done some reading of Jack Kruse. What he is saying/speculating is that cold exposure enhances the positive effects of ketosis both for health and performance. Do you have any thoughts on that?
Thanks, Martin
1. GREAT question, and the real answer (based on unpublished data I’ve seen) may be both. In other words, it might be that lower RQ + exercise increased TEE more than either one by more than the effect of addition (i.e., true accretion).
2. No idea.
Hi Martin,
1. Jack also mentions this in his blogs. His view is that when your cirdacian/inner clock is working optimally calories are not an issue as you’re metabolism will simply increase when you increase calories and you generate more heat. That’s also why he says one of the health markers he look for is how good you are at tolerating cold. So Peter would be able to generate heat from the extra calories instead of storing them as fat. I think it goes far beyond calories and it’s about homeostasis in the really big picture. Diet is important (Jack talks about electron density of food) – but there is more to it.
2. In my own personal experience I think that CT is an awesome tool for therapeutic and overall health benefits. As I’m not really exercising at the moment due to an eating disorder I can’t comment on that. My mood is obviously affected by the eating disorder but I’ve found CT to be a great tool for helping with that too. CT is also a good way to exercise because the body has to respond to the cold. What has surprised is how quickly I’ve adapted to cold temperatures. You should go to Jack’s forum and read the thread ‘Fasted State Training Adaptions’ – there are a lot of observations and clearly no size fits all.
Best regards,
Hemming
Hi Hemming,
thanks for the comments on CT! I have no doubts, based on my own experience, that ketosis offers advantages for both health experience. Now I am intrigued by CT as the next step. One problem with Jack’s writing, though, is that it seems a bit… speculative.
You write that you use CT and see its benefits, I would 2 questions on this:
1. do you do the extreme version with ice baths or limit the cold exposure to e.g. cold showers, less clothing in winter, etc?
2. how long did you do it before seeing the actual benefits that Jack talks about?
As for the training in a fasted state, I already do it, both endurance runs and high intensity climbing/bouldering and it works for me great.
Thanks, Tomasz
I’ve been doing Jack’s CT protocal for 15 months now. It’s every thing the guy has”speculated” on. Its uncanny how “excercise-like” the experience is. Except it lowers cortisol and injuries ,the more you do it. The effect of CT was almost immediate.,(sexual function and strength in the gym).and increased over time.
Have you ever analyzed the calorific content of your excrements? In articles about people eating varying amounts of food and authors hypothesizing about the reasons for weight gain or lack thereof, the assumption usually seems to be that the calories leaving the body via excrements is zero or at least constant, regardless of food intake. To me this appears counter-intuitive. I would really appreciate if you could point me to a paper that deals with this question. And many thanks for the very interesting information you have already shared with us.
I have not done stool calorimetery, but it’s doable. I have done 24 hour urine collections with quantification of nitrogen and ketones. Neither account for much loss. Total ketone lost in 24 hours is less than 1 gm when I tested.
https://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/96/2/296/T2.expansion.html has some stool calorific / composition data relevant to nut inclusion in a diet, it does vary.
Thank you for all the time and effort to share your story and research with me . I really enjoyed the the video – it helped clarify, in my own mind, some of the points you have been making in your blog. In reading your blog replies, I was very disappointed to read that you had received negative feedback about mentioning specific supplements.
I truly appreciate you giving specific recommendations and experiences you have had with supplements and hope that you will at least consider mentioning different products in the future. With the 1000’s available, it is almost impossible to discern between the “good, the bad and the ugly”. I can make my own decision, if I want to buy a product or not:, but, your specific input is very much appreciated and desired. One of your product recommendations has made a tremendous difference in my performance and I would have never found it, tried it, or trusted, it without your blog post.
I can only imagine the frustration of providing this blog and then being criticized for providing specific name brand products that help; but, at least for me, I really want those recommendations and opinions to start my own research from.
Please keep up the great work – it is changing lives.
Thanks so much, Jay. I do wish there was a way to openly discuss this, as I am constantly tweaking my supplements, but maybe one day I’ll write a dedicated post to address this with a 50 disclaimers stating that I don’t sell them or profit from their sale or anything else. I’m 100% for disclosure, and really believe in it, so I was very irked with a bit of feedback I got for writing about super starch when I disclosed in that video that I had no conflict of interest.
Hear Hear!!
I agree wholeheartedly and hope you will, in the future, continue to mention products you believe in and use. I am capable of doing my own due diligence, but having some recommendations from someone with your background makes the process quicker and easier.
I really enjoyed your talk!
Hi Peter,
I was just at the annual AMA conference. I got to sit in on the reference committee and hear the argument for/against classifying obesity as a disease. I had just watched this the night before. In general, I don’t like ad hominem arguments, but I could not take many of these (overweight) doctors seriously. Moreover, going through medical school, I have had really no education on nutrition. In fact, talking to my student colleagues over dinner that night, none of us know much about nutrition, considered a “soft science”, and instead are just making stuff up based on other physiology.
All this to say one, I lost the debate and the AMA now considers obesity a disease, and two, please keep up the good work (with clear, cited explanations) because honestly, you are my only education on the topic.
Personally, I have mixed feelings about this decision, which may eventually warrant an entire blog post. I’m honored that you find the blog a helpful component of your CME (effectively).
Hey Peter, loved the presentation. I just came here with a few direct questions. I’ve been really digging into everything ketosis for awhile now (should probably stop and do my studies, lol), and I’ve found your blog to be on of the most informative sources of information on ketosis/ketogenesis. Nonetheless, I have some questions:
(1) Protein and ketosis: You have stated, as have others (Phinney/Volek/Taubes/Ron Rosedale/etc.) that protein can inhibit ketogenesis due to insulin spikes and gluconeogenesis. I have seen some evidence that this may not be true: https://www.lucastafur.com/search/label/high%20protein and https://www.ketotic.org/2013/02/protein-ketogenesis-and-glucose.html (this is actually the final post in a series of posts on protein and ketosis). Do you think that after a period of being in ketosis, one can tolerate more protein, or maybe if one is also fasting and/or resistance training?
(2) Muscle Building and ketosis: in brief, I feel as though I should be heavier than I currently am (after a period of yo-yo dieting and vegetarianism until I’ve finally found traditional styles of eating). I’m starting to believe that ketosis may be beneficial in terms of longevity, but as many have seen it is tough to do highly intense activities. You are one that is on the fringe of modern science as far as I can tell, though there are others: https://jackkruse.com/forum/showthread.php?297-Fasted-State-Training-Adaptations; do you believe it is possible to stimulate muscle growth in an absence of carbs, rather than doing a cyclical ketogenic diet that I’ve been doing (Bulletproof Diet/Lyle McDonald)?
(3) Ketosis + Aminos/supplements: Paul Jaminet (of Perfect Health Diet) shows research on ketogenic diets supplemented with amino acids, namely leucine and lysine (and I believe some others to prevent *possible* toxicity) to increase the amount of ketones produced; what do you think of this? Could an individual get away with more carbs and sustain glycogen a little more if they were supplementing with these and maybe MCTs? Lastly, if you had only one supplement, piece of tech for quantification and tracking, or ‘supplemental food’ (Ben.G eating sweetbreads in his experiment) for an individual looking to push the limits athletically with ketosis, what would it be?
Thanks in advance for any possible insights – sorry this was kind of lengthy. Again, I love the blog and I reference you a lot on various forums I browse, you can truly synthesize and lay out information in a remarkable way that allows people who haven’t yet gotten/don’t have your knowledge to understand.
Mostly addressed in the posts and comments about ketosis (5 posts in total, plus their respective comments).
Wow,wow,and wow,
Have been following your blog for a few months now. Great presentation, which reinforced much of the info in the blog posts. I have been tweaking my nutrition based on much of your info for an upcoming Ironman distance triathlon I am doing in July. I am 51 and hope to go sub 8:52 which I think would be a new world best time, un officially for an over 50 athlete!. I will be using Super Starch for carbs on the bike! Over here in the Uk, it reflects the USA in it’s nutritional habits, a good friend of mine is a food scientist and really big on the negative role sugar is playing on the health of the Nation, often giving talks to clubs, such as the swimming club where his daughter swims. He works with producers of sugar filled products. The problem is chicken and egg, if they produce products which are low in sugar high in fat they just won’t sell, due too the ignorance of the consumer. Therefore it will be a slow process of education of the masses, which I think what politics is all about!
Keep up the fantastic work you are doing. We are trying to do what we can over here as well!
Graham
Wow, Graham, that would be remarkable. At the risk of stating the obvious, just be sure to train extensively with whatever nutrition plan you plan to put into place on race day.
Hello Peter. I’m a huge follower of the Eating Academy, and I’ve become very interested in nutrition, cholesterol, etc.
I understand that you consume coconut oil. I’ve started consuming it regularly (as of 3 days ago), but I notice that it gives me an uncomfortable chest tightness. Is this the sign of a heart problem, or something else?
No idea.
You are not alone in this: https://paleohacks.com/questions/112646/coconut-and-anxiety-attacks#axzz2YSntCeY2
Coconut oil is extremely high in salycilates. This can cause anxiety in some people, especially in people with Celiacs.
This is a great talk that I wish more people could understand. I lost 105 lbs. 15 years ago and have kept it off by doing what you are explaining.I was up to 315 lbs in 1996. As a therapist, I became equally as interested in the affects my muscles have on my body because the harder I worked out, the more injuries I had. What I found was, as my muscles shortened and hardened from my workouts. the pain I incurred. When dealing with overweight people, I understand, having been one. that when you hurt you are less likely to do anything. That is just a human response. Helping people to unlock their muscles reduces their chronic pain and gives them freedom of movement. My wife is a Registered Dietitian and she would help them with their nutrition. I would love to talk more with you, in detail, of what I have learned from the muscles and how it relates to what you are doing with nutrition. This is very different from what we normally hear.
Wow, very exciting story, Butch. Congratulations to you. I’m sure you and your wife are doing great work helping many people.
Peter, what is your opinion on going for long stretches between meals, say, a minimum of 6 hours (and doing this consistently)? I have found it really reduces hunger cravings. I no longer need to snack.
I read this Buddhist wisdom somewhere:
“Craving is just like a stray cat. If you keep feeding it, of course it’s going to keep coming around to your house. If you stop feeding it, it will eventually give up and go to someone else’s house to bother them for food.”
To me, this wisdom in a nutshell applies to any sort of craving or desire. The body seems to sense after a while that there is no good information being generated in the craving sensation and either stops generating it, or the brain stops listening to it. I’ve cut off snacking entirely. To a certain point, hunger is just a habit. After that point, it reflects real physiological need. It can be hard to tell the difference, but if you eat three square meals per day, I just do not see any real need to snack.
I am now quite active, playing squash alternating with days of brisk walking. I am trying to space the meals at 6 hours apart. I have been tempted to ditch the dinner meal entirely (just due to lack of hunger for it), but I have not had the courage to do so.
Any thoughts on this approach? Am I being extreme? Do you think it would be beneficial to continue this way, health-wise? Thanks so much.
Dan Hackam
I’m not really sure, Dan. You may recall I did a 6 month experiment of one meal per day (sort of an extreme IF). I love it, and I was certainly at my leanest, but today (back in regular ol’ ketosis) I find I’m performing better (though not quite as lean in bf% or quite as light).
Peter, thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will look on the website for that experiment. Sounds like you ate like a buddhist monk (except the vegetarian part; they consume only one meal per day, and it’s usually consumed by noon – theravada buddhists, at least). I wonder how it made you feel. I don’t exercise anywhere close to your intensity, but I’d like to look into this.
Hmm. Can’t seem to find it – unless it’s under “What I actually eat Part II – IFIK”.
My guess is that avoiding swings in glucose and insulin is excellent for your long term oncological and neurological health, as well as the “cardiovasculature”. One way to do this would seem to be eating very few meals per day. However, if counter-regulatory hormones start to kick in – cortisol, epinephrine, norepinephrine, glucagon – this might obviate any benefit. Still, there are some natural experiments that suggest that caloric deprivation extends lifespan – e.g. the World War II Dutch famine, concentration camps survivors, and experiments in chimpanzees, mice, etc. I’m going to try to see how far I get with this, without losing too much more weight and compromising my squash game (I’m sitting at just under 130 lbs right now).
Never mind. I found what I was looking for. The “IFIK / What am I eating Part II” section revealed the whole story. I am going to keep spacing meals apart as far as possible, and not snack between meals. If I can get to 8 hours between meals, I can easily drop supper. I think it’s possible to thrive on one meal per day (ie 24 hour fasting cycles).
Am a big fan of Dr. Attia. Unbelievable level of detail in his data.
Ever since I listened to Taubes, and read this blog, I have been religiously following a low-carb, high fat diet for a few months, and I thought the past couple of weeks my body finally adapted to this diet. I didn’t lose weight (I had already lost about 25 lbs on a traditional diet – low-fat, and lots of exercise), but I had been maintaining this weight for over 2-3 months. For the past couple of weeks, though, I see an increase in my weight. I have been eating well (perhaps overeating, sometimes). Sometimes I feel I haven’t been eating enough, like the last week. I expected my body to dive into the fat reserves in my body for energy, but that doesn’t seem to be happening.
Two questions:
1. I wonder at what point does the body start using the fat reserves in the body, instead of the dietary fat for energy?
2. Is there such a thing as ‘starvation mode’ — where my body gets the ‘famine’ signal, and starts conserving energy, instead of spending it?
Many thanks!
Complex (but great) questions… very quickly…
1. I will attempt to describe this in a post I’m working on about “fat flux”
2. Yes, and it can happen with and without access to seemingly abundant food supply.