Jim Otvos is a biophysical chemist who pioneered the use of nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy to measure lipoprotein particles and developed the first FDA-cleared method for directly quantifying LDL particle number (LDL-P), a technology that has since expanded to provide broader insights into metabolic health, inflammation, insulin resistance, and mortality risk. In this episode, Jim recounts the unlikely story of transforming a flawed cancer test into a new way of measuring lipoproteins, explains what standard cholesterol tests can miss and why LDL-P and apoB can inform treatment decisions beyond LDL cholesterol alone, and dispels the misconception that large, “fluffy” LDL particles are benign. He also explores how NMR can reveal insulin resistance before blood sugar rises, GlycA as a marker of chronic low-grade inflammation, and the metabolic vulnerability index (MVX) as a potential measure of frailty, resilience, and mortality risk across the lifespan. Finally, Jim explains why NMR diagnostics remain underused despite the wealth of information they can extract from a single blood test.
Subscribe on: APPLE PODCASTS | SPOTIFY | RSS | OVERCAST
“My mission for The Peter Attia Drive has always been to provide you with the most rigorous, evidence-informed insights on longevity. To do that without cluttering your experience with ads, we rely entirely on our premium members. If you’d like to support the work that makes this mission possible, consider becoming a premium member.”
– Peter
We discuss:
Timestamps: There are two sets of timestamps associated with the topic list below. The first is audio (A), and the second is video (V). If you are listening to this podcast with the audio player on this page or in your favorite podcast player, please refer to the audio timestamps. If you are watching the video version on this page or YouTube, please refer to the video timestamps.
- How investigating a flawed 1986 cancer test led to the development of NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) lipoprotein testing [A: 3:30, V: 0:11];
- How standard lipid panels measure cholesterol and triglycerides, and why LDL cholesterol is estimated rather than directly measured [A: 15:15, V: 12:50];
- How NMR spectroscopy measures lipoprotein particle size and concentration [A: 20:30, V: 18:16];
- Why LDL particle number matters more than particle size, and why large, “fluffy” LDL is not benign [A: 28:45, V: 26:52];
- Discordance between LDL cholesterol and LDL particle number: which measure better reflects cardiovascular risk? [A: 36:30, V: 35:02];
- How metabolic syndrome and lipid-lowering treatment contribute to the discordance between LDL-C and LDL-P, and the value of particle number for managing risk [A: 45:30, V: 44:27];
- Using the NMR-derived LP-IR score to detect insulin resistance and predict type 2 diabetes before glucose rises [A: 51:15, V: 50:32];
- The development, commercialization, and uncertain future of the Vantera NMR Analyzer and NMR-based diagnostics [A: 1:04:45, V: 1:05:04];
- The analytical efficiency of NMR testing and the data-driven development of the Metabolic Vulnerability Index (MVX) [A: 1:16:00, V: 1:17:00];
- GlycA as an NMR-derived marker of systemic inflammation: its discovery, biological basis, and advantages over hs-CRP [A: 1:25:45, V: 1:26:54];
- Developing the Metabolic Vulnerability Index (MVX): biomarkers of inflammation, malnutrition, muscle wasting, and mortality risk [A: 1:34:00, V: 1:35:42];
- What MVX can tell us about longevity and mortality [A: 1:44:15, V: 1:46:00];
- How MVX may reveal metabolic frailty and predict premature mortality decades in advance in young, healthy adults [A: 1:50:30, V: 1:52:25];
- Potential applications of MVX for predicting treatment response, surgical resilience, and clinical trial outcomes, and the barriers to broader use [A: 2:00:00, V: 2:02:17];
- ApoB versus LDL-P: their clinical similarities, the additional information provided by NMR, and barriers to broader adoption [A: 2:07:30, V: 2:10:16];
- Interpreting the effects of the CETP inhibitor, obicetrapib, on LDL-P, apoB, and small HDL particles [A: 2:13:00, V: 2:16:01];
- The future of NMR diagnostics and MVX: translating scientific potential into broader clinical use [A: 2:20:45, V: 2:23:53]; and
- More.
Show Notes
How investigating a flawed 1986 cancer test led to the development of NMR (nuclear magnetic resonance) lipoprotein testing [A: 3:30, V: 0:11]
- Peter has followed Jim’s work for roughly 15 years
- Tom Dayspring introduced him to it in May 2011, when Peter was immersing himself in lipidology
- Most listeners have had an LDL-P or HDL-P test done without realizing the test traces back to Jim, who created it
Tell us your story
- Jim’s PhD is in biochemistry
- He spent 20 years in academia using NMR spectroscopy as a structural tool
- NMR machines are found in every chemistry department
- He held chemistry appointments at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee, then moved to North Carolina State University in 1990
- He was using NMR for the usual purpose—studying biomolecules
- (He will explain how NMR works later)
- NMR is very useful for a particular purpose: helping organic chemists determine the structure of molecules that they synthesize
- Jim was using it to understanding what was going on at the active site of zinc metalloenzymes (more challenging than understanding small molecules)
In 1986 a paper in the New England Journal of Medicine claimed a simple NMR test could tell whether someone had cancer, irrespective of the cancer type
- The claim drew attention in the NMR field, though Jim did not normally read the NEJM
- The paper laid no mechanistic foundation; it simply measured how wide a couple of prominent signals in the NMR spectrum of blood plasma were, halfway up the signal
- A narrow signal meant cancer
- A signal that was not narrow meant no cancer
- Because it was in the NEJM, everyone with an NMR machine wanted to replicate it
- Jim’s chemistry department was not associated with the medical school, so he had no way to get plasma
- He crossed the street to a hospital and talked the lab into giving him 6 leftover plasma samples from healthy people
- Half the signals were narrow and half were broad—but none of these people had cancer
- 3 were women who had just given birth
- Pregnancy was one false positive already noted in the NEJM paper
Jim shares, “If it wasn’t for that sort of linkage to something that seemed consistent with what was published, I probably never would’ve taken another spectrum of plasma.”
- Out of scientific curiosity he kept measuring plasma, and noticed the supposed cancer signal was NOT a clean symmetrical NMR signal—it had lumps, bumps, and shoulders
- Asking where the signal showed up and which molecules gave rise to it, it became clear the signals came from lipids and lipoprotein particles
Serendipitously Siemens Medical Systems gave him about $100,000 to investigate lipoproteins in people with and without cancer
- This was after a one-hour presentation on what he might learn with the money—a rare opportunity for a professor who had to go through a lot more hoops to get funding
- The funding let him get samples from people with and without cancer and separate the major lipoproteins—VLDL, LDL, and HDL
- The VLDL signals always sat to the left of the LDL signals
- The LDL signals always sat to the left of the HDL signals
- It was the superposition of these signals and their relative concentrations differing that gave rise to the different shapes of this composite mixture signal that you would see in a plasma sample
- It was obvious that this signal was coming from lipoprotein
The narrow “cancer” signal turned out to reflect higher triglycerides and lower HDL cholesterol (which together make the signal narrower)—nothing to do with cancer itself
⇒ People with cancer have, on average, higher triglycerides and lower HDL cholesterol, a fact published 20 years earlier
- In 1991 Jim published a paper in Clinical Chemistry showing the NMR signals from isolated VLDL and HDL did NOT differ at all between people with and without cancer
- What was highly reproducible was that the VLDL, LDL, and HDL signals showed up in slightly different places
Turning the signal into a lipoprotein measurement, and the decision to commercialize
- Jim’s idea was to use this putative cancer signal as a source of information about lipoprotein concentrations
- A simple low-tech NMR spectrum—obtainable on any machine—could generate a signal whose shape and amplitude let you deduce the concentrations of VLDL, LDL, and HDL
- On Siemens’ advice he filed a patent, despite knowing little about patenting or caring about commercialization
- This NMR method seemed to have some advantage over the usual way of measuring triglycerides and LDL and HDL cholesterol via normal chemical methods
- The patent was issued
- There were no NMR machines in clinical laboratories—and there still are none to this day—so clinical translation would require a commercial vehicle
- The idea evolved across the early 1990s to about 1995–96, supported by a couple of NIH grants for analytic development
Unexpectedly, NMR could differentiate not just VLDL, LDL, and HDL but their size subspecies—smaller, medium, and larger particles
- Ron Krauss at UC Berkeley’s Donner Laboratory had shown (via laborious gradient gel electrophoresis) that LDL could be differentiated by size
⇒ And he found that people with a prevalence of small, dense LDL had greater cardiovascular risk at a given LDL cholesterol level than people with large LDL
- But the electrophoresis took a couple of days start to finish, so it was not clinically translatable or efficient
- Krauss sent Jim about 45 samples along with the electrophoresis tracings
- When Jim applied his analysis for decomposing the composite NMR signal into its parts, he could clearly tell pattern A (large LDL) from pattern B (small LDL)
- After a couple of years, he refined the method to quantify small and large LDL and HDL
- The clinical promise of measuring LDL size drove Jim toward commercializing NMR testing—a step he felt very unqualified to take
“What would drive the utility of NMR testing was if it could measure something better and different… if we could measure small dense LDL pattern A and B.”‒ Jim Otvos
- It really did seem that you could not only generate the same information as a lipid panel by NMR, but you could also measure something better and different
- If we could measure LDL pattern A and B [pattern B are small dense], that would be a very useful thing clinically
⇒ LDL pattern B has a 3-fold greater risk associated with it at a given level of LDL cholesterol
How standard lipid panels measure cholesterol and triglycerides, and why LDL cholesterol is estimated rather than directly measured [A: 15:15, V: 12:50]
A patient gets their blood drawn—what has to happen chemically to produce a basic lipid panel?
- The basic lipid panel: total cholesterol, LDL-C, HDL-C, triglycerides all in mg/dL
- A conventional lipid panel uses standard chemistry-based assays: a reagent is added that reacts with what you are trying to measure
- The triglyceride assay is instructive because triglycerides are fatty acids esterified to glycerol
- What actually happens in that assay is the blood is exposed to a lipase that hydrolyzes, that separates the fatty acid from the glycerol—it leaves the glycerol
- And then something else is added to to make a color change in proportion to the amount of glycerol
- So the assay is actually counting the glycerol and imputing the triglyceride from the roughly 3:1 ratio
{end of show notes preview}
Would you like access to extensive show notes and references for this podcast (and more)?
Check out this post to see an example of what the substantial show notes look like. Become a member today to get access.

Jim Otvos, Ph.D.
James (Jim) Otvos earned a PhD in comparative biochemistry from UC Berkeley and completed his postdoctoral training in molecular biophysics at Yale University. He spent 20 years in academia, first on the chemistry faculty at the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee and then as Professor of Biochemistry at North Carolina State University, during which time he developed new technology for measuring lipoprotein particles using nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) spectroscopy. He then founded LipoScience, Inc. to enable clinical translation of the NMR blood testing technology and served on the Board of Directors and as Chief Scientific Officer overseeing analytical development and clinical research. Under his leadership, LipoScience developed the Vantera Clinical Analyzer, a fully automated NMR platform designed for high-throughput lipoprotein subfractionation analysis in clinical laboratories, which subsequently received FDA approval. This device quantifies key metrics in plasma to produce a lipid profile and provide additional information on metabolic health and mortality risk. Following Labcorp’s acquisition of LipoScience in 2014, Dr. Otvos continued to oversee research devoted to development of novel NMR metabolomic assays addressing cardiovascular, diabetes, and inflammatory risk. He left Labcorp in 2022 but maintains active clinical research collaborations with academic, government, and industrial investigators. This includes academic affiliations with NC State University (Adjunct Professor of Molecular and Structural Biochemistry) and the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill (Adjunct Professor of Medicine). He has coauthored over 250 scientific publications and is a named inventor on over 15 patents. Dr. Otvos’s recent work has focused on translating the rich data hidden in a single NMR spectrum into multimarker scores that predict insulin resistance (LP-IR), diabetes risk (DRI), systemic inflammation (GlycA), and short-term all-cause mortality (the Metabolic Vulnerability Index, or MVX). [CardioPharma, Inc. and Grokipedia]
LinkedIn: Jim (James) Otvos




